Thoughts on Forced Continuity and Similar Scams

I don’t usually get caught by these. I expect them to be there most of the time with “free trials”, but Joel Comm caught me off guard on that one. I didn’t find out I signed up for it until I discovered that a lot of people were complaining. Then I checked. Sure enough. I signed up. Adsense has been a weak point with me, so I will give the trial a chance.

I guess I did something similar. It didn’t involve money. When I first installed the comment followup plugin, I made the notify box checked by default. Then I started commenting on a few blogs that did that. Not a good thing to do. It will fill your inbox quickly. I quickly went back and made it a choice.

You never know what some things you do may cause until you are on the other side.

Stephan Millers last blog post..Thoughts on Productivity, Habits and the Price is Right

It’s interesting to hear you dabbled in the world of Internet Marketing a few years ago. I would have imagined that starting back then would be alot easier than starting now. Mainly because of the exponential growth of the internet which has definably increased competition. Are there any regrets that you didn’t push harder earlier?

1. Dearly Beloved Caroline:
2. This is quite amazing a post.
3. You know what? You always amaze me! Seriously.
4. Why did you not just tell me the other time when I was fuzzing about you using PPC that you had all the experience about six (6) good years back?! :-)
5. This is one thing I know for everyone who does something online, the truth will catch up someday.
6. What am I saying?
7. It is always better to start and continue everything one have to do in SPIRIT AND IN TRUTH.
8. Out of the blue, I just felt like checking your blog again today though I read all your posts lately and have been up to date and have even signed up for your mailing list, but there is something peculiar about all you do and do you know what it is?
9. You say it as it is. Simple.
10. Now, not everyone love or like THE TRUTH and you must appreciate why…
11. Which is better? 2 days to 10000 pounds or 2 years to 10 pounds? Which will you naturally go for? Obvious right…
12. When people hear THE TRUTH, they run! So, they have to be SOLD, not SOLD TO. Get the twist and tweak? :-)
13. Thank you for always being yourself. I think I will be around here for some time.
14. Really amazing, interesting posts you do.
15. Now, as long as the internet exist and continue to unfold the way it is, the time is around the corner where every face will be placed in the open and we will know who is ready to create the next rip off.
16. Personally very silent on many fields but sure listening to it all.
17. It has been said in a proverb that if THE LIE goes for twenty years on a trip, THE TRUTH will catch up with it in one day.
18. As much as the thought process is to genuinely help one more fellow person that crosses your path (website), life is sweet.
19. Hope this helps. Remain blessed and a blessing and we shall communicate again soon if God is willing!
20. Regards, Olakunle Solomon Fatoye.

Olakunle Solomon Fatoyes last blog post..MARRIAGE SOFTWARE

Why the hell did you type out your questions/comments like this?

Personally Caroline I feel that joel did the whole thing as a backlink scam.

Mubins last blog post..Did Everyone Check there Email?

I admire your candour and am pleased to see that you had the courage of your convictions to turn your back on the shady business tactics; they may earn a quick buck but certainly wouldn’t build a loyal customer base.

Good luck with your present ventures, it may be harder, but most definitely more worthwhile AND you’ll be able to sleep at night (at least if you’re earning enough to pay the bills that is)…

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Thanks for the lesson on terminology, I really hadn’t heard that term before, although I am familiar with their practices.

I personally won’t use anything that has a “Forced Continuity” attached to it, I can almost always find an alternative. I know if I used something like that I would forget about it and 30 days (or maybe 90) I would see a fee I probably didn’t want.

Scott Fillmers last blog post..Ivy Creek Trail Colorado

@Clog, it was easier in some ways but not in others. Back then I could buy an absolute ton of PPC traffic for 1c a click, nowadays 10c is considered cheap! However, back then blogs weren’t big and that has added a whole new dimension to IM. I don’t regret not pushing harder back then because I was in the wrong mindset - always looking for the quick buck. I’m much happier now.

@Olakunle, I’m sure I’ve mentioned my PPC stuff before haven’t I? I lose track :-) It was like a whole different world back then though, AdWords wasn’t even around and if I was to start PPC now I would be a complete newbie so I don’t really count the experience. I’m glad I could surprise you though :-)

@Mubin, backlink scam? Do you mean, as linkbait?? I highly doubt that, I think his reputation will have taken a hit with this incident which will cost him more than a few backlinks would be worth.

@Scott, I sign up to quite a few of these things and I simply use Google Calendar to give myself a reminder to cancel before the trial period should I not want to continue the service. But of course, I can only do that if I know I’ve been signed up to it in the first place!

Interesting topic, I am against it and am sure Joel knew what he was doing but didn’t expect to cause so many issues with customers.

Michael Dunlops last blog post..My Business Sucks!

I would not agree more with your post. I wrote about it last week here: http://tinyurl.com/4d8ks7 I do not think it was a mistake. I firmly believe he knew exactly what he was doing and did it on purpose. It gives Internet marketing a bad name and it is too bad.

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I have been in this IM from some time and have seen so many scammers and beyond that I did (and still do) have doubts about anyone other than them making a buck. Over time I have made $600.00 (since 1995). Well at least that’s 600.00 more than I started with LOL.

What is bad here is that there are many honest people out there trying to make an honest buck and get rolled over many times. Thanks Caroline for the great post.

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I don’t really mind FC but it must never be hidden–the terms have to be crystal clear. (If it was me, I would be pretty nervous about getting shut down by the FTC in the States if I wasn’t very clear about it, but maybe that’s just me having too much faith again.)

Teaching Sells was FC, wasn’t it? Incidentally, if I give a credit card, I assume I’m in an FC.

Sonia Simones last blog post..The Hidden Cost of Playing It Safe

Caroline,

The newletter is terrific. I didn’t know about the WP Automatic Upgrade Plugin. I wouldn’t worry about the AlexaRank plummeting — you’re still in the six figures. I’m at 8 million.

What’s with SearchStatus and PageRank? The AlexaRank reading seem to track consistently from page to page, but PageRank seems screwy. Right now, at I type this on your site, it’s saying PR 0. It does the same with my blog, but it’s new so it probably hasn’t been through a quarterly PR update. The PR 0 (or sometimes “unranked”) reading also happens sometimes on sites that I know to be PR 5 and above. This same thing seems to be happening with Google Toolbar.

Andre Kibbes last blog post..A Pattern Language for Productivity, Pattern #20: Process Projects

At the very least, Joel Comm was pushing the boundaries of what is acceptable to most people in Internet Marketing. Plausible deniability is not an excuse, that’s for the politicians and even then people see through that these days.

Treat others the way you would like to be treated yourself!

Guru Bob

Guru Bobs last blog post..gurubob: Our minds can shape the way a thing will be because we act according to our expectations. - Federico Fellini

Having been in the marketing business for 20+ years, I can tell you with honesty and certainty, people whom are in it, only for the money, will certainly end up doing something stupid and they’ll get what they deserve in the end.

Whether it’s promoting something at the PlayDude mansion and alienating their entire female audience, or forced continuity buried in the fine print, these people, often the worst of list abusers, need to be stopped. And the only way to do that is by having the courage to do what Caroline has done, post it, talk about it, and stop them.

The best thing you readers can do, to stop abusive marketers, is to eliminate their revenue sources by unsubscribing from their lists, tweets and feeds, and never, ever, buying anything from them, ever again, no matter how good they make it sound.

Many info sellers are highly trained in direct response marketing techniques, basic psychology, and prey on weak willed people through manipulating human emotions. Just say NO! Stop being their personal ATMs and giving them cash every time they ask for it.

(Oh and BTW, direct marketing doesn’t work on people under the age of 30. Blasted with media since birth, their hype meters are on full alert and they can spot it in 10 words or less.)

When it comes to internet marketing, your worth is your reputation. You need to be transparent. Free of hype. Give value first (not added). And most important of all, be a good listener so you can give people what they want.

Follow these tips and you will do very well, by recommending products that genuinely help your readers save time, solve problems and earn more. And yes, you can do that with honestly, integrity and transparency.

(Oh, and I have seen the future of internet marketing. It’s name is Caroline Middlebrook and people like her that are open and honest and real. Subscribe to her blog won’t you? It’s a good one.)

Congratulations on a great post Caroline. The internet, by it’s very nature may encourage those who are “less than honest” to setup shop and prey, on the unwary. If they get caught in the act they can disappear like smoke in the wind. It really is a case of buyer beware when making a purchase or accepting any kind of offer online.

Caroline does us all a service by spotlighting those deceptive practices which have given IM a bad reputation. For those who want to do business honestly it’s important not only to avoid such practices but be entirely above board with customers.

There are lots of ways to offer products which have a time limited trial or expiry with no fine print or forced continuity. This works to the benefit of the vendor and the prospective customer and helps build trust. At the end of the trial you’ve either made a sale or you haven’t. Misleading people is entirely unacceptable and unnecessary.

I have experienced tons of scams and have tried scamming myself. Yes, I did just admit that, but everyone learns their lesson, which I did :)

I now know all types of scams that are formed through the Internet. I mention the Internet because it’s the easiest place to attract gullible potential buyers. I even consider eBooks being scams, but that is my own opinion. Most eBooks don’t teach, but they have a “refferal” or “affiliate” type of program that catches more buyers to refer new ones (I did an article about it).

-Mike

Mike Huangs last blog post..Goodbye To Entrecard

Caroline, as you say, ‘forced continuity’ itself is NOT the thorny issue - it’s the way it is implemented.

‘Forced continuity’ or ‘TFN (till further notice)’ or ‘auto-rebilling’ are CONVENIENCES to a buyer, if presented correctly and integrated into the selling process ethically and honestly.

I go into examples in this blog post,

“Forced Continuity - Great Concept, Stupid Implementation”
http://MoneyPowerWisdom.com/forced-continuity-great-concept-stupid-implementation/

All success
Dr.Mani

Hi Caroline - I hate those type of programs too and what Joel did sucked. But at least he’s apologised for it I suppose.

And you can still have a great newsletter without resorting to shady tactics. So long as you really believe in yourself and what you’re selling you’ll do great.

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Caroline,

Thank you for the open post. The Internet marketing world is in a big need for openess and transparency. We need to bring the human factor and humanity back to the http://WWW.

Those forced continuity plans are good and bad. I appreciate the chance to test drive a product or service before I commit to investing my hard earned funds monthly. My most recent good experience with that was with Brian Clark and TeachingSells.

I have had bad experiences signing up and there is no notification that your trial period is ending and if you do remember that site makes it extremely difficult to cancel. It is not posted but you have to open a support ticket and request cancelation.

It seems it would be a pain for them to have to go through the process to make refunds. I have had several experiences with “reputable” sites that do this. It is similar to those who build lists but then make it impossible for you to contact them while capturing your data on several lists and sending the same email to each list.

I didn’t go with Joel’s offer but I did notice his operation is growing and growing. Maybe things like this are a by-product of growth. The guru is so far removed from the operations that they become unaware of what is going on.

Don’t apologize for creating a newsletter. Just like the forced continuity they can be good and bad. A positive tool or a weapon. I am on a few newsletter lists of gurus who respect their readers, John Reese, Perry Marshall, Yaro Starak to names a few. The send out relevant emails with value and not just a barrage of promotions.

I got my intro to IM through flyer type website marketing. It seemed easy and simple. The products were relatively cheap and seemingly in demand. But as time progressed I became dissillusioned to the point of walking away. The products I was promoting I knew I would not invest in.

I did take a break for a time and was doing other things. Then not too long ago I was looking at my previous work and somehow I discovered some honorable marketers and my interest and hope were renewed.

So thanks for this post Caroline, we need more like this.

@Sonia, Teaching Sells did a $1 trial but not a free trial as far as I know. However the principle is the same for a free trial or a cheap one - the initial period is so cheap that its an absolute bargain but if you don’t want to continue then you have to explicitly remember to cancel. TS didn’t get any heat over it because they were totally open about what they were doing.

@Andre, each individual page on a website has its own PR so any time so come here to read a brand new post it will be PR0 but if you go to home page you’ll see the PR for the overall blog which was 5 last time I checked.

@Guru Bob, yes that’s right - this is where gut instincts can help. If you know you’d be happy as a customer of your own product and the way it was marketed then you’re probably just fine.

@Michael, I appreciate what you are saying but I certainly wouldn’t go as far as to call Joel an abusive marketer - I think that’s a little harsh! Also, vowing to never make another purchase again is cutting off your nose to spite your face. A marketer whose tactics I dislike is Mike Filsaime and I never believe a word of his marketing but that won’t stop me making use of his stuff if it can help me.

But thank you very much for your support - I saw your post on your blog, much appreciated :-)

@Marvin, yes you have hit on something that I overlooked on my post - if the product you are using FC for is good then the product will speak for itself and the customer will continue their subscription anyway. If you have to con people into buying it you have to question the quality.

@Mike, well again, I think its pertinent to focus not on the technique but how it is used. As you probably know I released an ebook which promoted one particular affiliate link quite heavily and I made around $4000 from it. However, the ebook was valuable in itself. How do I know that? For the two months following its release I was literally getting people every single day thanking me for releasing the ebook. It’s not the affiliate link itself that is a scam, its how it is used.

@Dr Mani, yes I think yours was one of the first posts I saw about Joel’s little fiasco and I was very surprised that you of all people had missed it!

@Darwin, yeah I can see how the big guys like Joel would be so wrapped up in the IM world that he’d detatch himself from it a little and not realise, but somehow I doubt it :/

This just shows the lengths some people go to in order to generate profits. Nevertheless, I just want to say that I’m not surprised by this - many sales letters and websites I’ve come across do seem to be misleading.

Worse, some products are not reflective of what is being hyped up in the sales letter. In fact, they are such a let down that you can’t help feeling scammed.

While I do agree that most Internet Marketers have a common objective to make money online, I can’t help feel that most of the sales pitches I’ve read lean towards overselling.

I guess what most people would be sincere Internet Marketers - who sincerely want to sell a quality product to the right users. Ideally, the product is exactly as described, if not better.

Perhaps this is the next step in a maturing market, where product quality plays an important role in making a sale, instead of just plain sales talk.

Cheers, Samantha Tang

What Sells Online!s last blog post..Practical Strategies to beat Google Adwords - The Internet Business Ideas Guide #4

I really wonder if, when all is said and done, if this is going to be a net benefit to Joel or not. I bought his $9 e-book last week, and I didn’t know about the whole “negative billing” thing (which is another term for it). I’m still furious at him. If you put yourself out there as being a good guy, and then you pull a stunt like this, how do you think people will view you in the future? What’s more, his “apology” read more like a sales letter to me. It didn’t feel like he was truly sorry at all. Still, we’re talking about it, and he is getting all of these backlinks. It might still work for him. Time will tell.

- Dave

David at DavidNordmark.coms last blog post..Blog Marketing: Establishing Expertis

@Samantha, describing the product as described, what a novel concept! This is something I don’t understand about the modern IM crowd - all the gurus are talking about list marketing and developing a relationship with your list in order to generate ongoing sales but if you cheat a customer once they are never coming back! So for that strategy to work you DO need to be honest and many of those same gurus are still over-hyping their products.

@David, I think this is going to seriously hurt his reputation. I don’t think for a moment that this was a stunt to generate backlinks - there are plenty of blackhat ways of generating tens of thousands of backlinks if so required.

Caroline, I think you hit it on the head–too many of the IM guys talk the talk, but they don’t walk the walk. They teach that you have to take good care of your list, treat ‘em with respect, don’t spam ‘em or scam ‘em, but that’s not how they behave.

You could do that with mail order and it was hard to get caught (until you got arrested, that is–and at least one IM “cool kid” has admitted to being previously shut down by the FTC for having a shady outfit), but on the Internet, people talk. People blog. People Twitter. These guys are making money, but I’m not sure they’ll make long term money. The warnings can spread as fast as the hype can.

The thing that bugs me is, if they can’t make money without scuzzy tactics, why should I buy their products? If they don’t follow their own advice, why should I believe that advice will make me successful?

Sonia Simones last blog post..The Hidden Cost of Playing It Safe

Caroline, I did not call Joel an abusive marketer, those are your words, not mine. I was careful not to mention any names. I only described situations and circumstances.

I’m saying that people who are deceptive, or don’t practice full disclosure, will get what they deserve in the end, which is a damaged reputation.

But I stand by my words that the only way to fight back at marketers you don’t like, is to get off their lists. Hit ‘em where it hurts, in the wallet. Besides, if a product is truly outstanding, you’ll hear about it - not from direct marketers - but from your true friends, coaches and mentors.

@Michael, ahh sorry, my apologies for mis-interpreting you. And yeah, you’re right about speaking with the wallet.

It’s hard to imagine doing this kind of thing as a publicity stunt, but I agree with the person above who said his apology looks like a sales letter. If not, perhaps he’s just trying to turn a mistake into something positive (and overdoing it?). He should have been upfront about the billing though, after all, people do buy things on that basis if they think it’s a quality product from a trustworthy company.

Seems like there is a word or phrase for just about everything these days.

I have never been caught in a FC scheme and I didn’t know these even existed!
I am very careful about money and giving away credit card details so if I signed up for some free trial and was asked for credit card details I would back up before giving my details away (the only exception is when I know for sure I will buy whatever is it they sell).

Internet Junkies last blog post..A New Way to Increase your Articles’ Pageviews

@Internet Junkie, yeah if you have to give your credit card details for a “free” trial that would ring alarm bells. In this case Joel sold his ebook for a few bucks so everybody who bought it would have needed to provide payment details anyway!

Hi Caroline,

It’s precisely because of stuff like this (whether intentional or not), that I pretty much try to ignore just about all the “lastest and greatest” product launches in the IM world these days. Ultimately, if something’s good, it will still be good a month or two down the road when all the hoopla has died down … and in the mean time, any “controversies” will have had time to become exposed.

Todd

Todd in Hawaiis last blog post..Iroquois Point Elementary School

I’m always really careful about signing up in forced continuity situations. It always sounds like a great offer, but I have to consider if I am going to have the time to go back and cancel it.

However, one of my new favorite things about Paypal is their virtual debit card plug in. You can generate single use or single payee credit cards. Then all you have to do is go back and cancel that card if you think you might get stuck in a rebill nightmare.

One thing that I don’t understand about companies who bank on forced continuity is the chargeback factor with their merchant account. I wouldn’t want to risk having my discount rate bumped or dropped entirely.

Carlas last blog post..Save On Marketing and Advertising

@Carla, that’s interesting - I had never heard of that. I usually just go straight to the original Paypal transaction and then cancel the transaction from there.

Caroline,

Kudos on ‘fessing up.

You haven’t mentioned the insidious part of “forced continuity”, which is that it is sometimes well camouflaged.

You may spend weeks or months trying to figure out who’s charging a credit card when the ID on the statement doesn’t match any of your other records. Somehow, these “vendors” get away with pulling some name or ID out of the air, using it to extract credit card payments, and NOT providing a way for the credit card company or consumer to link the charge to a particular firm.

I’ve had a 4 month battle with 2checkout because they continued to bill my CC for something I thought I had cancelled. I finally cancelled the underlying credit card after the second month. But, the vendor continued to bill through 2checkout. After a half-dozen emails it became apparent that the people I was contacting to cancel the recurring charge, were NOT listening.

Even after contacting 2checkout and finding out who the vendor really was, they refused to refund any of the cash, citing my “lack of action” within their 30-day trial period. The worst part…this was PLR site that I never accessed beyond the signup action.

My advice; avoid 2checkout recurring billing and halfagain.com websites. And stay away from continuity programs in general unless you set them up through PayPal or another service where YOU control the subscription.