Can You Make Money Online, Without Teaching About Making Money Online?

This is a really important point, Caroline. In fact, if you look at people like Ryan Deiss you can see that you can make MORE money in traditional markets (via membership sites) than in information marketing. Look at the total amount of searches and e-commerce dollars. Only a tiny fraction are internet marketing related.

The issue is that to make money on line in a niche, you have to first know how to market on the internet. This automatically creates an IM niche teaching marketing. This is natural. Further, since the topic is “how to make money” you automatically get sleeze and snake-oil.

There are lots of people not in the IM niche making lots of money online.

Great post.

Mark Masons last blog post..Some “Free” Information Marketing Resources

Caroline,

Very thought provoking post. I “grew up” in the corporate world, but have fully embraced the online one. My old colleagues, however scoff at the Jeff Walkers of the world as snake oil salesmen, but there is no doubt those guys are generating hundreds of thousands.

I’m curious about the “quiet earners” that you mentioned and ironically, last week started a project to write about $100k online success stories. As it progresses, I’ll keep you updated on what we uncover.

CFO Strategists last blog post..“Linkedin 101” – 101 Tips to Enhance Your Use of LinkedIn – Part 1

Thank you very much for this post, Caroline. I was starting to get very discouraged. I’m so glad that I always open your emails first because your great good common sense is always like a drink of cool refreshing water to a person dying of thirst…I’m not kidding…!

What a timely and interesting post. I kid you not, for the past couple of months I have had this same thought of - all the people making a lot of money online - are the folks who are selling “how to make millions on the internet” product. It has made me wonder - will I be able to actually make my company (a membership site) a huge success? Well thank you so much for this post. It accomplished what you set out to do - it has given me encouragement and new found faith that I can be successful as long as I continue to grow the methods that I am learning from all those internet marketing gurus to market my site! LOL…

Rosie Nietos last blog post..Don’t accept the counter from an Auction!

You’ve put this very well Caroline.

The preponderance of the vocal noise we hear about making money online is by the folks who make THEIR money selling to that market.

When I created a ripping product for this market a couple years ago - people often asked me why I even bothered releasing it and instead kept it for myself - to make the money before the typical swamping and ending the method came.

Being able to email your list and see a lot of money come in is a very seductive thing - and the whole “famous” part is a big motivator for some people.

I’m continually drawn to Michael Campbell InternetMarketingSecrets.com - who has a very wise and easygoing approach to reality in marketing online by making his money in niche markets - but putting out a free high-quality newsletter about it - monetized by affiliate stuff he personally uses.

The folks making the cake in niche markets are smart NOT to divulge what they are doing - as there are a lot of parasites just waiting to leap in and duplicate their efforts with 2 dozen outsourcers in Pakistan.

Keep up the good work - I know you aren’t making enough money with this blog - but it is a great resource and I’m hoping you will.

Rick Butts

Rick Buttss last blog post..Ross Goldberg Gives Worst Internet Marketing Advice I’ve Ever Heard

Caroline, great post! I am one of those that have never heard of the first few you spoke of, however I have been a big fan of Darren’s for some time. In fact, it is his blog that got me to create my own in the first place.

As for money making, I personally have never wanted to fabulously rich, just well enough to live however I want without worry. I figured, with a blog I can write a few posts a day/week and if I make it intriguing enough and keep up with it, that in itself will generate some good passive income via ads, over time and with the right promotions.

Not only that, but I’ll make friends along the way too!

I think in the end people will feel satisfied, with or without the cash if they are doing something they enjoy doing in the first place. Getting rich is sometimes a fluke.

Also, anyone that say’s it will make you money is suspect in my opinion, so I find it facsinating that they can make the numbers you say.

Waynes last blog post..AP Goes After Bloggers For Posting Article Headlines And Snippets

caroline, what a timely post! i was just starting to come to the same conclusion as badrulnazar.

it seems that internet marketers sell you their information products and then entice you to become an affiliate, which you do because you want to recoup the money you spent buying their product!

if you look at the testimonials on their sales pages, they’re from people who are also in the “make money online” niche!

for now i’ve decided to concentrate on my freelance writing as a way to make money from home, online. it doesn’t have any promises of making big bucks in a short time like internet marketing does. but i can sleep soundly at night knowing i’m providing a real service instead of a promise of profits.

on the other hand, i am using everything i’m learning on internet marketing to promote my web articles and services.

Lexis last blog post..The Cost of Starting a Freelance Writing Career

Caroline,

This is a good post, but of course it leaves me with more questions than answers. I don’t try to make money online with my blog, though my website and my blog are both there to answer questions for potential clients (which would make us money) as well as readers, so I guess defining “make money online” differently, maybe I am…

Everybody with a business website of any sort is trying to “make money online” in one sense. That would mean there are loads of folks making money online, from The Gap and other traditional retailers, to software or app developers, to me, discussing my service.

When I think of MMO, I think of folks who are trying to monetize their online presence and make money in that sense, not using the Internet as a support and delivery vehicle for their product or service. In that case, you have the gamut from Darren and Yaro, to Caroline, and making money without teaching about it seems a lot more difficult.

Is that too cynical?

(Darren says he make more money from Digital Photography School than from ProBlogger, so maybe that proves me wrong right there.)

I do think an online presence is critical for any business model, but I think a business model based simply on “being” an Internet presence is a tough row to hoe. Sometimes it comes across as simply a new method of multi-level marketing (present company excluded!).

Regards,

Kelly

Kellys last blog post..Inspiration Points: Blind Faith?

Excellent post, Caroline!

Side note: I’m so very glad I stumbled upon your site. You know your “schtuff” girlfriend!

I would, technically, fall in the category of making money online without selling to the making money online crowd. So, we do exist!

I have built a variety of businesses that exist mainly online - all designed to help people create businesses or vocations out of what they love and are passionate about. Some of my clients at some time are interested in making money online - but that’s not my exclusive niche by any stretch of the imagination.

I have clients like artists, pastors, moms, retired seniors, secretaries working their way up the corporate ladder, etc.

One of my businesses is becoming an offline “brick & mortar” business - but I paid for the creation of the business with a monetized blog & freelance writing.

While I can’t say I’m as financially well off as the gurus who make millions from each launch - I have a business (or a collection of them) that I love and that allow me to get paid… for being me.

That makes me feel like a million bucks!

Sincerely,

Meg Meyer

@Mark, yeah it is actually quite difficult to do well in the IM niche due to the amount of competition, the savvy audience and so on. People like Ed Dale & Jeff Walker are always telling us how much easier it is to market in non-IM niches.

@Rick, yeah I’m sure there are lots of people out there who are doing very well and don’t want to tell others about it simply because they don’t want the competition! The noisy guys do seem to skew the view of the industry.

@Wayne, to be honest I think that most people would be perfectly happy just earning an ordinary living with their online business but its easy to get seduced by these guru’s showing how they make huge amounts so quickly and this in itself can be discouraging to somebody who is making ‘modest’ amounts - it makes them question their own efforts and results.

@Lexi, well all online marketing involves providing something that somebody else wants. It’s just supply and demand. Of course, so many people want money so products that promise to teach people how to make money are alays enticing but it’s so easy to forget that there are billions of services, products and education that people want and all those can be turned into legitimate business ideas.

@Kelly, yes Darren has said that he makes many times more money with his photography blog than with ProBlogger. But if had never created ProBlogger then he would be one of those bloggers that makes a good living that we don’t know about.

While an online presence may be critical for a ‘business’, there are many ways of making money online that does not require a presence in that sense. For example, there are many people earning an extremely good living from affiliate marketing in a totally anonymous way.

@Meg, thanks for giving us a solid example of the kinds of people I am talking about! I am always fond of the saying “work with your passion and the money will follow”.

Actually, the biggest money is in the IM industry. You can’t really expect to make 6 figures in the green tea niche, can you?

Dear Caroline, The IM Queen of Truth!

So glad that you responded so quickly to my question!

I probably have to divide the question into 2

a) Make-money-online via Advertisement (Adsense, TLA, Chitika etc.)

b) Make-money-online via writing ebooks & affiliate links

c) I would not include online MLM in this discussion

in (a) Yes I know there are many more people make-money-online in niches other than MMO e.g. seat-guru.com and ask-the-builder.com and thousands more.

in (b) however, this is still arguable.

I think it boils down on how you define MMO. For me SEO ebook is MMO, Article Marketing ebook is MMO, “Traffic Secrets & Marketing Secrets” is MMO, Butterfly Marketing System is MMO, Dominiche is also MMO.

Well… at least half of your examples that you thought is UNRELATED to MMO is actually MMO!

It usually goes like this!

* Buy my dominiche ebook and make $Zillions in a month
* Buy my SEO ebook and make $Quantrillion in 10 days
* Buy my Traffic secret ebook and earn $Gadzillion in 2 hours
* Buy my Butterfly Marketing ebook and make $Googoolizion
in 30 seconds!

For me.. pure non-MMO is something like

* Buy my How to Grow orkids and have a beautiful garden
* Buy my How to make ordinary cats look like siamese-cats ebook and love them as they are.
* Buy my “How to attract georgeous blondes and how to ditch your wife ebook” and live happily everafter!

See!! in my second examples, there is nothing about make-money-online.

OTOH, I have some examples of people who initially involved in non MMO niche but then jump to MMO and a huge amt of money from it.

1) Jeremy Pallmer - the affiliate millionaire. Some people said he sold his secrets after the PPC ads prices become sky high and he can no longer make money as before.

2) The late Corey Ruld - he originally sold ebook about car tips, then jump with both feet into MMO

3) Yaro started with “essay editing” business and now make serious money in MMO

4) Gobala Krishnan (asian marketeer) failed with a VOIP ebook and now laughing all his way to the bank with MMO ebooks. He is on track to become a USD $Millionaire this year (2008). (And yes his MMO ebooks are good)

Can you see what I am seeing.

I mean, can I be a millionaire like them by selling ebooks in say.. “Tips on Maintaining Your Car”.

If I have to make a guess, I think the possibility to become a millionaire in non MMO niches is less than 1% of MMO niche.

Despite all the negative thought from me above, I am actually dying to hear anyone to prove that I was wrong! (with real non MMO millionaires examples)!

Thanks again Caroline, for bringing this issue up! Love to read the post & comments!!

I am writing an ebook “How to make the least money online and die trying”.

Anybody? The price is $497 which is very cheap becoz…

Tomorrow the price has to be increased to $997 because of the oil price & uncertainty in Middle East!!

You have 2 hours and 3 minit and 2.5 seconds to respond…

The clock is ticking….

@Ruchir, sure the *biggest* money might be in this niche, but most of us would be happy to just make a living.

@Badrulnazar, actually all of those products I mentioned ARE in the MMO niche - that was the evidence FOR your case that I presented first :-)

Let me give you an example of what I consider to be making money in a non-MMO niche. Let’s say you are a keen gardener, you might create a site about growing herbs for example. You might monetize it to start with using AdSense and some affiliate products for gardening books & products. Later you might write an ebook and sell it via your site and then perhaps launch a membership site. You might have another site about cooking with home-grown food and do a smimilar thing and then link those two sites together. It would be quite feasible to be able to build that into a business that brings in $10k+ per month.

One thing I don’t understand is, why the obsession over the huge numbers, do you REALLY care about being a millionaire? I feel another post coming on…

I was a mostly a hidden affiliate for years until I ran into all these “Make Money Online” blogs. I haven’t made six figures but I have made more than your average day job consistently for three years now.
I jumped on the bad wagon because I saw so much crap being taught. A lot of “Make Money Online” blogs only get the description because the owner is making money off of visitors.
You can make money without talking about making money. In fact, the ones who make a lot have no need for a blog to tell everyone about it.

Stephan Millers last blog post..Getting Closer to the Clouds

Great post!

I made my first money online the following niches: genealogy, baby & new moms, and web hosting.

In many ways it’s easier to make money in a non-IM niche.

I also believe that the biggest money may not be in the IM industry but rather is in things like Real Estate, Travel, and Web Hosting.

Imagine if you had the #1 spot on Google for cheap airfare, or cheap apartments in LA. What would that be worth???

I think the real challenge is to promote yourself without sounding like a used car salesman. Having a good product, such as your ebook or SU course helps you to build credibility without having to over hype yourself or “fake the funk.”

While teaching SEO and PPC is definitely an easy way to get traffic, the true test comes with a niche outside the big topics and trying to make money from that. I love your theme of bringing people along for the ride, but I am growing tired of other people selling the money angle when they haven’t made any their selves. A lot of times, people build the name before they build the content and that is a mistake. In my opinion, there aren’t any top secrets, only hard work.

Nathans last blog post..Knewsroom - Fame and Fortune

Dear Caroline

I apologize for being too sarcastic. I am going wise up from now on.

I think, whatever online venture we do, It has to offer monetary advantage to the customer. e.g. if we write an ebook:

a) Buy my gardening ebook and stay healthy (Bad strategy)
b) Buy my gardening ebook and save money because you dont have to buy gym membership and could also look like an athlete. (good strategy)

a) Buy my body-building ebook and make everyone turn their head on you (Bad strategy)
b) Buy my body-building ebook and make yourself look like Arnold schwarzzz-very-difficult-to-spell and secure your place in Hollywood and earn like a superstar (Good strategy)

Despite saying all above, I probably won’t go via this route. My project that I started last year (with root since 1999) is very long term (i am talking about 5-10 years) and I probably will not mention anything about make $$$ in the whole portal.

Thanks for enlightening me and I shall retire from writing post for at least several weeks (and complete my half-finished project ASAP) ;-)

I was wondering if anyone had heard of Andrew and Daryl Grant?
http://www.squidoo.com/AndrewandDarylGrant

I assume they are making money within this niche now, but previously it was due to unrelated e-books.

I believe that too many are teaching concepts that they don’t yet know. Your better than most because rather than assume authority you blog as a journey.

Though you also get people like Skellie. Rather than writing about stuff she didn’t know, she wrote about the stuff she does well: writing killer content.

I want to make a few thousand a month, with all honesty. Not millions but maybe 6 figures. However I intend to delve into offline ways of making money as well :)

Good post Caroline.

@Stephan, thanks - that’s exactly my point.

@Nick, yep that is a very good point. If you check the keyword “make money online”, the traffic for it is tiny compared to the really big niches out there.

@Nathan, yes I agree. Its a shame my niche sites that I created last year never really kicked off. I seem to be doing better at social media and getting traffic that way than actually pulling in the $$$ hehe.

@badrulnazar, no need to apologise! Your comments have inspired an interesting post and lots of discussion which is always a good thing!

@Jade, yes I have heard of them. They are typical of the kinds of people who made a good income in the ‘old fashioned’ way and then began to teach their system to others so they are now in the MMO niche also.

I agree. I never heard of these people you named there. I think there is much more money to be made outside of the MMO niche, because this niche is overcrowded.

However, the MMO niche is a very inspiring niche. When you see people actually rake in thousands a month with blogging only. I like it :-)

Robberts last blog post..Nederlanders gemakzuchtig met geld

This is a good post and brings up some interesting points. However…

Internet marketing is just like offline marketing, in other words if you enter a market late, you make less money than those who entered early on.

Every product/niche has a life line. The further down the life line you enter the less money there is in that niche.

Any blog in any niche can make money if the number of websites that currently exist is small in relation to the number of searches. That’s where keyword analysis comes in. Many think keyword analysis is for finding the “phrases that pay” but before that step you should use them to work out the KEI and KOI of that word or phrase. If they both show that the niche is already saturated with sites and blogs it’s better to find another niche as your chances of making money are slim.

This is similiar to the makeble versus marketable rule. Any blog is makable but not many, due to competition levels are marketable in the sense that as competition is sooo fierce it becomes increasingly hard for your blog to stand out and to market.

I personally think this is the same with the MMO niche. I think it is better to find a niche that you know about and are comfortable writing about, and that is still relatively untapped. There is only so much money to go around one niche and in the MMO its been largely tied up with the big names who were in it from the start. I doubt if you could make a comfortable living from the MMO niche today as it’s lifeline is at the mature stage.

As an example look at Zen Habits blog by Leo Babauta. Its nothing to do with MMO but through good SEO an IM he was able to leverage an unpopulated niche and within one year had over 40,000 subscribers and over 1 milion hits a month. Needless to say he now works on Zen Habits, as well as a couple of other blogs (none in the MMO niche) full time and making a nice go of it though he doesn’t publise the fact. The same can be said of self-help guru Steve Pavlina, and Leon Ho of Life Hack fame.

Andrew Scotchmers last blog post..Reduce Stress With A Tidy Desk

@Andrew, well I’m not really sure I buy into the idea that you can’t compete in a crowded market. I started this blog less than a year ago and it’s grown at a rate that I’m happy with. Of course, it’s not making much money :-) You have to wonder also, how many ways can there be to teach people how to make money online? Where as, if you work in other niches, new markets are popping up all the time.

EXCELLENT POST CAROLINE!

You raise a point that requires examination though… That the most well-known names in the internet marketing industry made much of their money through internet marketing products.

While this is true, the nature of being well known in this industry is that you are well known BECAUSE you sell internet marketing products to other internet marketers.

The Internet Marketing industry is a fantastic market/niche. If you do some market value analysis on it, it’s a very expensive market/niche - meaning there’s a lot of money to be made there.

However, there are other markets/niches that also make a lot of money too. For example, real estate, insurance, finance, traffic for web-sites, sex and pornography, and more…

If you think about “internet marketing” as just the process of selling something primarily online, there are a lot of companies making a lot of money in these areas - sites like realestate.com.au and lendingtree.com

Having said that, there’s a lot of money to be made in teaching people how to make money.

In a previous life, I worked to promote seminars for real estate investors who taught other potential investors their strategies.

The strategies worked… They were good strategies… And those who used them were generally successful. (Although only 0.5-1% of all people actually applied the strategies)

However, one of the reasons that many of the speakers were SO PHENOMENALLY successful was *because* they ran seminars…

The seminars brought in cashflow, which funded deposits, which meant that they could fund many more real estate investments.

So while an investor might only be able to buy 2-3 houses, these guys could buy 20-30 in the same timeframe.

Apply this to the “Internet Marketing Education” market… If you’re a John Reese or a Ryan Deiss or a Dan Raine - and you’re already making money from a series of online marketing strategies - why wouldn’t you help some people, make a bit of money, and sell some of your techniques?

…Particularly if you know that about 99% of all people who buy your products WON’T compete with you because they won’t do a thing with the information they receive.

It’s a good market, and a good source of an honest income.

Having said that - it’s not the ONLY market that you can make money in online.

Brent

@Brent, I agree that there is nothing wrong with this industry and making money by teaching others but before you can do that you have to find something that works that you can teach. What I see is a lot of frustration from people that beleive that the ONLY way to make money is to teach others how to do it which is clearly not the case. Of course, once you have reached that stage then yes you can build on that success by teaching others but you have to walk before you can run…

Carolyn,

I have found a soul sister in you! I cater to female entrepreneurs turning their passion into a business and their situations really apply here. They are niche blogging about marketing and business, yes, but also about jewelry, children, non-profit services, enviromentalism, politics, designer clothing, pets, family, escaping the cubicle nation, menopause, aging, and more. They need the encouragement to follow their interests and that’s the whole reason I do what I do. Thanks for contributing to the cause with your efforts.

I buy into the idea that you can make money online in a non-MMO niche. You can’t use the same “in your face” tactics (and even in the MMO market those techniques are cracking…). Some people, Squidoo participants for example, focus on a general theme with multiple sub-sites branching out from it. It’s easier to get a smaller amount from multiple sites than a huge amount from one. It’s an interesting model and a viable alternative to plunging into the MMO market if you don’t want to.

Enjoying your stuff. Would you be up for an interview for my audience? I’d feel honored to have you.

Together, we are stronger.
Vicki Flaugher, the original SmartWoman

Vicki Flaughers last blog post..Reminder: Call Wednesday! Turn Your Passion Into Cash with Lynn Pierce

@Vicki, that is great to hear. I have a friend who is considering starting a site about home grown vegetables so I’m hoping she’ll go ahead with the idea. Yep I’d love to do an interview - just shoot me the questions via my contact form.

Great post. In most programs people expect they will learn a lot from the sponsors. But most of the time they try hard and fail and give up.

Love this post, Caroline!!! I’ve been following your progress for a while now and really admire your authentic and transparent sharing.

There’s much talk in the blogosphere of just choosing the people you most resonate with to follow and be mentored by. I’m in huge agreement. There are literally millions of professionals, entrepreneurs and small business owners quietly making oodles of cash with no reason nor desire to shout it from the mountaintops.

Here’s a thought to consider, coined by Joe Vitale among others: “Your income is the average of the five people you hang out with most.”

So, if you’re not happy with your income you have two possible choices (1) get new friends (haha) or (2) help your friends increase their income too. ;)

Cheers,
Mari

Mari Smiths last blog post..Social Media Marketing: Battle Of The Sexes?

Hi Caroline,
I found your blog via a twit from Mari Smith. Glad I read it. It does indeed seem that to make money online, you must teach others to make money online.

It is my contention that to make money in any industry you must provide value. You must be of genuine service. Of course there are many people making loads of money from seemingly unserving sources, but for me and my God, I must provide great value.

Your comments have been a bright light and therefore great service to me.

May you find great profits for your efforts.

Heather Olson

@Mari, I read a similar quote but it was in more general terms and not just about money. It suggested that as people we become an average of the 5 people we hang out with most! So yes it does indeed make sense to choose our friends and mentors wisely and of course to help spread the wealth!

@Heather, I agree about providing value and I suspect that those who make money without providing genuine value will find their income streams to be short lived.

Is there not a slight logical problem with such a statement anyway? If the only way to make money online was to teach how to make money online, you’d have to teach how to make money online before you’d made any money online. Only you wouldn’t know what to teach, as you’d not have made any money yet!

Perhaps I’m being pedantic :0)

@Web Design, that is SPOT ON! That is the whole problem! So many newcomers see the ‘gurus’ making the big bucks teaching their various money making systems that they forget that there has to be some basic way to make money before it can be taught and that is exactly the point I wanted to remind people of with this post!

I recently wised up to this; this is why my last Squidoo lens is not about how to make money online. This is an experiment I am trying (not even published yet) and I wouldn’t be surprised if I made more money with it in a month than what I earned in 9 months of trying to show people how they could make money online!

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If you are a new online entrepreneur i do suggest having a blog to document your journey, why? because then its easy to keep track of what you have done. especially if your a guy, if you go to someone and say “i have a diary to keep track of what i am doing” you will get ALOT of stupid looks, but if you say “i have a blog to keep track of what i am doing” you wont look stupid.

=]

also, i should note, i own 3 blogs (none are MMO blogs) that have made me over $7000 in the past year.

so yes it is possible.

WSome of the guys that are making money from other things that “Internet Marketing” are most of the guys behind Stompernet. Brad Fallon has his WeddingFavors websites and one of the other guys sells Swords and Tapestry :)

Thats why I like the Stompernet guys so much. The are actually doing what they teach. But $799 is still a bot over my monthly budget…

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